I think bankroll management is one of the two most important factors (the other one would be understanding position) in becoming a winning player.

That being said, I do not believe it would be wise to build your bankroll "organically" by starting your online poker career playing the 0.01/0.02 or 0.05/0.10 tables as I'm sure so many on this forum and other are playing.

The reason I believe this is because these stakes or so small and players are so bad (but not in a good way) that you eliminate virtually all fold equity.

Most of the things you teach would only be effective against at least a semi-thinking player. The stakes are affiliated with this because most lines will only work if your opponent is scared to lose. Not many would be scared to lose their $2 buy in at a 0.01/0.02 table.

Without risk there is no reward and as long as you evaluate your play honestly and understand / employ your teachings I see no reason you students should not "take a shot" and gamble at a more respectable low limit i.e. 50NL or 100NL. This is not to say to gamble with your rent money but to use your savings/vacation money to give your bankroll a boost.

That's my two cents. Do you think what I say has any merit?

On anther note I'm lovin playing HU NL cash games right now. What kind of bankroll to you recommend for these games?

It's not necessarily just about fold equity - you need to know in general how to beat any kind of game you're playing. Each type of game requires adjustments to your opponents. In micro games, you need to bluff a lot less and rely on getting value from your stronger hands much more, because players never fold and will pay you off so much more often.

Adjusting to your opponents is the crux of becoming a winning player. Knowing how to exploit their weaknesses is the corollary. If you can't adjust properly to micro players, then you won't be able to adjust properly to players at higher stakes, regardless of whatever weaknesses they have. That's why I recommend starting at the micro stakes and building your roll organically. You will make many mistakes when starting (and forever), so it's best to make them at very low stakes where they don't cost you as much. Once you are consistently beating those stakes and have earned your bigger bankroll, you can afford to take shots at higher stakes and you will have intrinsic confidence knowing that you're a winning player.

i thinkthe micro stakes are an excellent place to learn without stress of losing too much, other players may or may not care if they win, but you will still see all types of players and play. You can learn to recognize how to beat the bad players that play at higher stakes( they simply have better day jobs to support their habit) it also promotes discipline and the ability to take bad beats with good humor, 2 skills that will be needed in any game with higher limits, not to mention calculating pot odds, hand reading hand selection, all the things needed at higher limits as well

thats my my thoughts

I feel that what you are saying has merit. I read atta22's reply and I can see some merit there too. However, having played micro stakes for quite some time, trying to build a bankroll to move up seems impossible. It has been taught that you should'nt judge your play by the end results, but by whether or not you made the right play at the time based on the information you had at the time. Since we don't always flop the nuts, we generally lose most our dough when we have the mortal nuts or at least think we are ahead. What I mean is, in micro stakes it seems, we lose the biggest pots in situations where I believe or at least hope that at higher stakes would have won a small or medium size pot. The reason is, that opponents simply gamble more at micro stakes than they do at higher stakes. They call a big PFR with hands that they wouldn't play at the higher stakes. So you can't reliably define your own hand vs theres. Then the flop comes and visibly you have the best of it, but they are pushing you. This can only mean 3 things. First - They are just crazy bluffin. ( Not likely but does happen) 2nd - They hit a set ( your probably not happy about that thought) 3rd - (They are pushing on a draw) and more often than not will just "Out luck You!" Of course there some other scenarios too. Like they hit 2nd pr and play it vigorously only to convert it to a set or hit a 2nd pair on the river etc.

But, all that being said, I do think it is a good place to start because you don't have to risk much. But, I wouldn't count on it to move your way up through the ranks. I think you are better off sticking a few bucks to the side each week or month and bankrolling it for the stakes you really plan on playing. Instead of renting videos or eating at McDonalds etc., just stick that money to the side and bring it to the table when you feel ready. That's my plan anyways.

Excellent reply.

You hit the nail on the head.

Micro stakers better start playing when they're 5 years old cause it will take them 50 years to build a repeatable roll like that.

I know there are genetic freaks (meant in a good way) like Atta22 & Durrrr who made a $50 deposit, grinded the micros and never looked back. Now Atta22 makes 10-15K a month and Durrrr has a multi-million dollar bankroll. These results are rare to say the least.

For me, I'll never waste time "learning" at the 0.01/0.02 table. I have learned a lot since joining this site and have confidence that I will never play lower than 50NL.

These micro tables should be treated as training tables to practice what you have learned through the videos and articles provided on this site. I read an article that said play OPM.
( other peoples money ) if you are playing at micro an consistantly making alittle headway most of the time about 80% then i feel you have learned enough to move up. But remember there are the same kind of fish at higher stakes they just have bigger bankrolls. So you have to learn to read them watch how they play basic profiling stuff. As you move up revisit the video's from start to finish with the experience learned at the tables you will catch something different each time around theirs alot of info in tho and i feel you can grasp it all in 1 veiwing


just my thoughts tho

jass

my experience was this in a nut shell
4 years mostly play limit stsarted at quaretr/ fiftty up 10/20, but mostly 2/4 6 man games by end, but most fish in limit lost $$$ and interest so games got less profitable so i spent about a year playing sng 6.50 turbos up to 20 buck sngs got bored, easy money though

started nl again around last xmas, was winning but was lucky enough to find tims's site and started watching videos

long story short started nickel/ dime to try his style, quickly added 1k to bakroll in 2 months, added another 2 k at 0.10/0.25

and so on at 0.25/0.50 etc

i would agree i wouldnt waste time at penny games

but the nickel dime (10nl) and dime quarter(25nl) are so easy to beat using tim's style it a good place to start in my humble opinion and you can quickly and easily build bankroll

there is a step change in player quality at about 0.25/0.50 in my experince

hope this helps

i agree with Hockeyguy. I played 5/10 ct and 10/25 ct tables to learn a lot of the basics. If you dont mind investing some money until you get the bankroll going that is. Actually at some point i was stuck in my game and out of annoyance started playing 0.50/1 tables. I managed to win 1.5k playing really tight and exploiting the gamblers. Of course this is a nice feeling but i decided to take a step back to learn more about the fundamentals. Its a lot more comfortable and i dont want to lose 100's of bucks because i'm practising my reraising and get out of line by accident.

I am quite surprised to see how many pretty weak players are sitting down with atta at the 2/4 tables. However it may be tempting I want to deserve my spot on that table instead of jumping right in.

good luck, Erik

cheius wrote:i agree with Hockeyguy. I played 5/10 ct and 10/25 ct tables to learn a lot of the basics. If you dont mind investing some money until you get the bankroll going that is. Actually at some point i was stuck in my game and out of annoyance started playing 0.50/1 tables. I managed to win 1.5k playing really tight and exploiting the gamblers. Of course this is a nice feeling but i decided to take a step back to learn more about the fundamentals. Its a lot more comfortable and i dont want to lose 100's of bucks because i'm practising my reraising and get out of line by accident.

I am quite surprised to see how many pretty weak players are sitting down with atta at the 2/4 tables. However it may be tempting I want to deserve my spot on that table instead of jumping right in.

good luck, Erik

You're right - there are still super weak players who jump in at 2/4+. They are just looking to gamble and usually either just refuse to play lower stakes, or won a MTT or something and are going for a rush. They are easy money.

However, the regulars are much better at higher stakes. So if you don't know how to handle their aggressiveness, you will get eaten alive. So if you can't spar properly with the 3-4 regs at the table (who you are mostly involved with when the fish folds), you will have a tough time making money.