Hi All

Thanks for comments on my first post the other day. Got a couple of more questions which i would like to understand better if you can take 5 mins to help.

1 - I hear a lot about Bet Sizing and i have seen it mentioned in the videos a lot. I understand the basics about c-betting around 66%-75% of the pot and value betting around half the pot on the river if you are strong, but apart from that i am not clear on how you would read an opponent based on bet sizing. I hear this all the time being mentioned as a key skill and i feel i need this clarified or explained further.

I watched one of the older vidoes today and an overbet was actioned by a player on the river and bet sizing was mentioned and atta22 folded as a result, but had said he may have called any other type of bet size. I am guessing the opponent thought you were also strong and hoped you would call with the 2nd best hand and i get that as i have done that myself. But if he had only bet 1/4 of the pot what would you have read that as? Any assistance on bet sizing and how i should read bet sizes would be helpful s i think i am overlooking an important area when trying to put opponents on hands.

2 - Calling a PFR in position (6 max). I have mentioned before that i came from 9 max and was drilled not to call in late position with hands such as KQ as more often than not you will be dominated by the likes of AK, AQ etc. At 6 max i seemed to have kept this bad habit and i am folding a lot of KQ in the cut off as well as AJ type hands. I have even done this on the button. Deep down i know i am tight and playing tight, but how would you gauge calling with a hand such as KQo or AJs in cut off or button against a loose player with PFR range of over 30% or a tighter player with a PFR range of around 15%. Love to hear your thoughts as i think i am missing out on a lot of winning hands as a result. My position in the hand is strong and i have a strong hand in these examples, but against different PFR players i am never sure of the best line i.e. call, raise or fold. Once again lover to hear your thoughts.

Many thanks once again.
Robert

bet sizing has 2 main issues

your bet sizing to extract max value and/or minimize risk
for instance you have ak and pfr, you flop top pr vs a known station, you bet a higher amount like 3/4 or pot size amout to max value on each street
vs a tag you might make 3 smaller bets flop/turn/river to get max value from him, he probably wont call 3 pot bets
or if you thought a player had second pair, dont bet too high to force a fold when he might call more modest bet size
important to remember- modest is 1/2 pot or so, not so small to give them chasing odds, small/tiny bets are major mistakes

another example vs tag player who typically raises or folds, if you miss flop but you think a Cbet has good chance to force a fold. if the guy typically folds or raises, Cbet less 1/2 to 2/3 pot since he will fold if he has zip, and if he raises you simply lost more since you cant call, There is no point in betting bigger ie risking more to achieve the same thing.
same thing on button vs tag i bet 2.5xbb or 3xbb, since many tags typically 3bet or fold, betting 4xbb does no good you just lose extra bb when he 3 bets

the second is when you are calling, many players bets are in a very predictable pattern
ex. they overbet draws and bluff trying to induce folds and make smaller bets w made hands to increase odds they get called and paid off
also the size of their bet deteermines the frequency you have to be correct to be profitable
ex, pot is 10, guy bets pot, pot now 20, costs 10 to call, if you are right that he is bluffing more than 1/3 it is a profitable call in long run
if the guy bets only half pot, then you only have to be right more than 1/4 to be profitable in long run

i know many of the videos atta makes reads and then decisions based on opponents previous betting patterns and/or pot odds to call.
i found he typically explained his thinking in each situation

bobbyboy1974 wrote:Hi All

2 - Calling a PFR in position (6 max). I have mentioned before that i came from 9 max and was drilled not to call in late position with hands such as KQ as more often than not you will be dominated by the likes of AK, AQ etc. At 6 max i seemed to have kept this bad habit and i am folding a lot of KQ in the cut off as well as AJ type hands. I have even done this on the button. Deep down i know i am tight and playing tight, but how would you gauge calling with a hand such as KQo or AJs in cut off or button against a loose player with PFR range of over 30% or a tighter player with a PFR range of around 15%. Love to hear your thoughts as i think i am missing out on a lot of winning hands as a result. My position in the hand is strong and i have a strong hand in these examples, but against different PFR players i am never sure of the best line i.e. call, raise or fold. Once again lover to hear your thoughts.

Many thanks once again.
Robert

not calling w aj,kq type hands in full ring is not neccessarly a bad habit, but in 6 max it is frequently a different situation. AJ and KQ are way ahead of a 30%pfr range and is a pretty standard 3 bet opportunity for value. Same hands vs a 15%pfr could be a fold, 3 bet, or call depending on the opponent style postflop. I might 3 bet if they fold a high % to a 3 bet, i might fold if they rarely fold to a 3 bet and have high Cbet %, or i might call if the have a low Cbet % on flop, indicating i could take the pot if they check indicating they missed the flop
If a 5% pfr type razes i almost always fold since their range crushes aj, kq ttype hands.

FYI- At most 50nl tables (and lower) AJo and KQo i almost always open raised from all positions including utg, and many times 3 bet them depending on style and position of pfr

gl hg

Thanks for the reply hockeyguy, your time is appreciated.

An additional comment on calling with hands like AJ and KQ to a PFR UTG or MP. After watching the two high stakes videos atta22 has done recently i have started in the past day or so paying a lot more attention to Holdem Manager stats, specifically the range the opponent is opening an unopened pot with depending on his position. I always had this stat but never used it properly, but now that it has been explained to me a light has switched on. If i see an opponent opening in MP with a range of around 30% or in the CO with 35% and i have AJ in the button or even in the Blinds i have started to 3 bet as in the long run AJ is better than his 30% opening range. Does not always work but i would say with my small sample it has worked 80% of the time which must be profitable. If i am then re-raised then i would need to evealuat but at least i have position and i will more than likely be able to narrow down my opponents range if he has not been doing anything fancy to date. etc... The recent high stakes videos were good as i like my Holdem Stats but now i know how to use them best.

Just like to mention for anyone planning on moving up the stakes, that i was doing exceptionally well at 10/25 and as a result i tried 25/50 this week. My play at 25/50 was fine overall and i did not really do much different to the 10/25 game, but this is a lesson for those who dont believe in the wild variances of poker (me being on of them). I lost with AA against JJ in a pre flop all in situation when a J decided to land on the flop (one $50 stack gone), i then had the same situation, going all in with QQ against my opponents JJ. Guess what, a J came on the flop again. Another $50 stack gone. I then had another example where we both went all in pre flop, blind on blind. I had JJ this time and opponent had AKs. The magical K landed on the flop to sink yet another $50.

The worst one of all was another $50 stack down the drain to probably the worst player/fish i have ever seen. I had AA and raised UTG to $2. Called not surprisingly by the fish in the BB who completed. His stats were 64/10 or around that level. The flop came 925 rainbow. He bet out and i thought the flop was safe but hoped he had caught maybe a piece of it and re-rasied. To my surprise he then re-raised me. Now i thought, could he have two pair, as he is a bad player and combos of 95, 92, 59 whist possible were still unlikely. I then thought did he have a set of 9's, 5's or 2's but i just thought surely not. I know i am probably going to be shot down here but i just re-raised him and he pushed. I have seen him do this with something like A9 so thought i must be ahead and pokerstove would back this up. I could not believe it when he showed two pair, 95. He had called my PFR in the BB with 95o. My heart sank to say the least, especially after the few examples i gave already. This all happened in the space of 24 - 48 hours. I have learned a lesson when it comes to variance.

I had 13 buy ins for that level, but after losing about 3 buy ins i have dropped back down to 10/25 and have won a few sessions straight again. Will build it back up again and hopefully next week take another shot and hope to run a little better. Just thought i would mention this as i never knew such bad luck in the space of 24 hours.

bobbyboy1974 wrote:Thanks for the reply hockeyguy, your time is appreciated.

An additional comment on calling with hands like AJ and KQ to a PFR UTG or MP. After watching the two high stakes videos atta22 has done recently i have started in the past day or so paying a lot more attention to Holdem Manager stats, specifically the range the opponent is opening an unopened pot with depending on his position. I always had this stat but never used it properly, but now that it has been explained to me a light has switched on.
yup, same thing happened for me, the positional pfr is SO helpful especially vs spazzy players at the micro games

If i see an opponent opening in MP with a range of around 30% or in the CO with 35% and i have AJ in the button or even in the Blinds i have started to 3 bet as in the long run AJ is better than his 30% opening range. Does not always work but i would say with my small sample it has worked 80% of the time which must be profitable. If i am then re-raised then i would need to evealuat but at least i have position and i will more than likely be able to narrow down my opponents range if he has not been doing anything fancy to date.

yup, the fold to 3 bet stat and 4 bet range stat are helpful

etc... The recent high stakes videos were good as i like my Holdem Stats but now i know how to use them best.

Just like to mention for anyone planning on moving up the stakes, that i was doing exceptionally well at 10/25 and as a result i tried 25/50 this week. My play at 25/50 was fine overall and i did not really do much different to the 10/25 game, but this is a lesson for those who dont believe in the wild variances of poker (me being on of them). I lost with AA against JJ in a pre flop all in situation when a J decided to land on the flop (one $50 stack gone), i then had the same situation, going all in with QQ against my opponents JJ. Guess what, a J came on the flop again. Another $50 stack gone. I then had another example where we both went all in pre flop, blind on blind. I had JJ this time and opponent had AKs. The magical K landed on the flop to sink yet another $50.

The worst one of all was another $50 stack down the drain to probably the worst player/fish i have ever seen. I had AA and raised UTG to $2. Called not surprisingly by the fish in the BB who completed. His stats were 64/10 or around that level. The flop came 925 rainbow. He bet out and i thought the flop was safe but hoped he had caught maybe a piece of it and re-rasied. To my surprise he then re-raised me. Now i thought, could he have two pair, as he is a bad player and combos of 95, 92, 59 whist possible were still unlikely. I then thought did he have a set of 9's, 5's or 2's but i just thought surely not. I know i am probably going to be shot down here but i just re-raised him and he pushed. I have seen him do this with something like A9 so thought i must be ahead and pokerstove would back this up. I could not believe it when he showed two pair, 95. He had called my PFR in the BB with 95o. My heart sank to say the least, especially after the few examples i gave already. This all happened in the space of 24 - 48 hours. I have learned a lesson when it comes to variance.

I had 13 buy ins for that level, but after losing about 3 buy ins i have dropped back down to 10/25 and have won a few sessions straight again. Will build it back up again and hopefully next week take another shot and hope to run a little better. Just thought i would mention this as i never knew such bad luck in the space of 24 hours.

Variation and mother nature have something in common-they can both be a BITCH!!!!
BUT SO IS PAYBACK, WHICH YE SHALL REAP ON THEIR FISHY BUTTS

better luck hg

bobbyboy1974 wrote:Hi All

Thanks for comments on my first post the other day. Got a couple of more questions which i would like to understand better if you can take 5 mins to help.

1 - I hear a lot about Bet Sizing and i have seen it mentioned in the videos a lot. I understand the basics about c-betting around 66%-75% of the pot and value betting around half the pot on the river if you are strong, but apart from that i am not clear on how you would read an opponent based on bet sizing. I hear this all the time being mentioned as a key skill and i feel i need this clarified or explained further.

I watched one of the older vidoes today and an overbet was actioned by a player on the river and bet sizing was mentioned and atta22 folded as a result, but had said he may have called any other type of bet size. I am guessing the opponent thought you were also strong and hoped you would call with the 2nd best hand and i get that as i have done that myself. But if he had only bet 1/4 of the pot what would you have read that as? Any assistance on bet sizing and how i should read bet sizes would be helpful s i think i am overlooking an important area when trying to put opponents on hands.

You can learn a lot about a player's intentions with their bet sizing.

A player is betting for two reasons - either for value because he thinks he has the best hand (ie. he believes his value range is ahead of your calling range), or as a bluff (or semi-bluff on a draw) because he wants you to fold. If a player is sizing their bets the same then it's impossible to tell from the bet size whether it's for value or a bluff. That's why I say you should size your cbets the same (66-75%) on the flop, so that your opponent won't be able to get bet sizing tells from you. But further down the line, whether it's on the river, or when someone's making a raise, they sometimes give off bet sizing tells that help you deduce their intentions with their bet. I find that when you check to a fishy villain on the river (or check behind on the turn) and they bet around half pot, they are bluffing with a high frequency. Fish often believe that a half pot bet looks like it's for value (and they're getting good odds on a bluff) so they think they can get away with it. If there are draws that missed and I know that the villain chases random draws like gutshots (or will call with two overcards), I'll often call these bets if I have a bluff-catcher (sometimes even just Ace-high).

Conversely, fish love to overbet the river with the (perceived) nuts. I've called way too many times in my career to know that they usually have it when they overbet.

You can take all this a level further and do the opposite if your opponent is a thinking player (ie. overbet as an actual bluff), which is the beauty of the game.

Another sizing tell I see is when people raise a substantial amount, clearly pot-committing themselves to call a push. While not always the case, this is often a draw that wants a maximum perceived fold equity. Sometimes some idiot will 4bet me some massive amount preflop, which I know is AK, and I'll push with 66 knowing that I'm a slight favorite.

It all comes down to feel - but keep an eye out and watch your opponent's bet sizing patterns - in the long run you will be able to glean information from them.

2 - Calling a PFR in position (6 max). I have mentioned before that i came from 9 max and was drilled not to call in late position with hands such as KQ as more often than not you will be dominated by the likes of AK, AQ etc. At 6 max i seemed to have kept this bad habit and i am folding a lot of KQ in the cut off as well as AJ type hands. I have even done this on the button. Deep down i know i am tight and playing tight, but how would you gauge calling with a hand such as KQo or AJs in cut off or button against a loose player with PFR range of over 30% or a tighter player with a PFR range of around 15%. Love to hear your thoughts as i think i am missing out on a lot of winning hands as a result. My position in the hand is strong and i have a strong hand in these examples, but against different PFR players i am never sure of the best line i.e. call, raise or fold. Once again lover to hear your thoughts.

Many thanks once again.
Robert

Hands like AJ and KQ are both good and bad. You've correctly identified the bad aspects - they are sometimes dominated. However, the good thing about these hands is that they can make some monsters (ie. broadway straights), and when you make these monsters, you often get paid off because your opponent has some other strong broadway hand (ie. You have AJ, board is KQT - obviously this hits your opponent's raising range pretty hard with lots of sets/2pairs/strong draws).

Now we don't always hit monsters with these hands, but they're still strong enough to get some value from your opponent's weaker hands. Your opponent will typically continuation bet on most flops, allowing you to steal more value from them if you flop strongly. You also can call in position and float them if you have a strong read that they give up on the turn when they miss the flop. Or perhaps they raised with a pocket pair that missed - you can often times steal the pot from them if there are overcards. Or perhaps the flop comes 987 with a flush draw - a bluff raise can often times get them off a lot of hands.

What I'm saying is that you have a lot of options post-flop if you're in position with hands like KQ and AJ. They flop well, and you can often times steal pots even when you miss. The key thing to remember is not to get value stacked when you are in fact dominated (which will happen). Know when to lay them down if your opponent is showing extreme aggression (and you have a read that he's pretty tight and doesn't run huge bluffs), and maybe practice some pot control at certain points (ie. you hold KQ, flop is K72, you call his continuation bet, perhaps check behind on the turn so that you can get to showdown without bloating the pot too much, and avoid losing a lot if he's playing a tricky AK or AA). Of course there's also nothing wrong with bet/folding on that K72 turn with your KQ if you know he almost never check-raise bluffs the turn, since sometimes he'll call with KJ and you can get value from it.

Hope this helps!
-Tim

as usual Atta22 has pointed out my lack of clarity.
there are so many players a10nl and 25nl that are completely brain dead and will call down w hands like 99 vs a pfr and a board like AQ8K2 that i think you can make bigger Cbet vs them, but mostly those players are rarer at 50nl and up where players are more actively trying (or trying to learn how to )to read your play so by not varying Cbet size gives away no info on your hand.

my apologies for lack of clarity
hg