Hi,

Having a rough start at Bodog...the style of play is so different here and Im not sure if Im countering my opponents in an optimal way.

At my previous site, playersonly, member of Merge, I met a lot of weak(ish) tags and nits and the occasional station. I have developed skills to be able to beat those players (a lot of credit to OP). Their playing styles are based on patterns and logic and during the play I observe them and their stats to find weaknesses and exploit them. That is how I am able to beat them, and it is also part of the fun.

At Bodog however, I find myself in a warzone, the tables are loaded with LoosePassive players and with maniacs. A single LP can be exploited but once you have more at your table, many hands are multiway and your fold equity vanishes. A maniac has even less patterns in his game.

I knew from the start here that the game would be different and the there will be more variance. But after having a bad start with not much luck Im starting to doubt if my style is armored for bodog. Am I playing optimally to beat the tables here?

In the next few days I will go through the forum to look for some topics on playing LP's multiway, looking for common lines. And I will watch some videos made by Hockeyguy.

One question that keeps me busy so far is this: How do you handle your preflop bet sizing when your table is full of LP-players. I have seen in vids that you might raise even more than 4bb + 1 per limper when you have a top hand. But isnt that play very obvious, if you dont raise this much in more marginal spots? Or is the general thought that opponents wont pick up on this bet sizing tell? For example Im getting annoyed having to play AJo 4-way after opening from early position...

I appreciate any little info on experiences at bodog.

cheers!

Hi Legion

you are correct that bodog does feature a more loose passive style of play compared to any other site i have played at, which is about a dozen or so over the years. But if you can beat the more aggro nitty players at other sites Bodog is even easier to beat, albeit w/ a bit different style.

Bodog opponents are most easily crushed w/ a very straightforward ABC approach from 5nl up to 200nl. Overall the average bodog opponent is non observant and only playing ther own cards. The relatively few competent tags are easily spotted and can be avoided or exploited based on their fairly obvious patterns.

legian62 wrote:Hi,

Having a rough start at Bodog...the style of play is so different here and Im not sure if Im countering my opponents in an optimal way.

WHAT LEVEL ARE YOU PLAYING?

At Bodog however, I find myself in a warzone, the tables are loaded with LoosePassive players and with maniacs. A single LP can be exploited but once you have more at your table, many hands are multiway and your fold equity vanishes.

I DONT WANT FOLD EQUITY FROM lp TYPES, I WANT THEM TO TRY TO OUT DRAW ME

IF IT IS MULTIWAY, NO HAND=NO BET, NO PROBLEM, I WILL GET EM NEXT TIME WHEN I HIT FLOP,
ALL ABOARD TO VALUETOWN


A maniac has even less patterns in his game.

MY TYPICAL STRATEGY IS SIMPLY PATIENCE, GET A MADE HAND AND MAKE EM PAY
IF THEY SHOVE AND I AM NOT ON A STRONG HAND OR ONLY LIGHTLY INVESTED I WILL GENERALLY LET IT GO AND GET THE SPAZZ LATTER WHEN I AM MORE CONFIDENT I AM BEST


I knew from the start here that the game would be different and the there will be more variance. But after having a bad start with not much luck Im starting to doubt if my style is armored for bodog. Am I playing optimally to beat the tables here?

I HAVE FOUND MY VARIANCE AT BODOG TO BE LESS THAN OTHER SITES DUE TO THE MORE PASSIVE STYLE OF PLAY WHICH RESULTS IN FEWER TOUGH DECISIONS THAN VS MORE AGGRO OPPONENTS


In the next few days I will go through the forum to look for some topics on playing LP's multiway, looking for common lines. And I will watch some videos made by Hockeyguy.

IN GENERAL MULTIWAY POTS REQUIRE A MADE HAND TO BET OR BIG/NUT DRAW TO CONTINUE
WHEN SOMEONE GETS FRISKY ON A SCARE CARD MULTIWAY THEY GENERALLY HAVE IT


One question that keeps me busy so far is this: How do you handle your preflop bet sizing when your table is full of LP-players. I have seen in vids that you might raise even more than 4bb + 1 per limper when you have a top hand. But isnt that play very obvious, if you dont raise this much in more marginal spots? Or is the general thought that opponents wont pick up on this bet sizing tell? For example Im getting annoyed having to play AJo 4-way after opening from early position...

SINCE BODOG OPPONENTS ARE LOOSE AND NON OBSERVANT I LOVE THE 4BB PFR + 1 BB/LIMPER PREFLOP.IF THEY WANT TO CHASE AND WILL PAY MORE TO DO SO, BY GOLLY I AM HAPPY TO CHARGE THEM. SINCE I PFR 4X ALL THE TIME IT DOES GIVE ANYTHING AWAY (THE 4BB PFR IS QUITE COMMON AT BODOG BY OTHER TAG TYPES, SO I DONT STICK OUT W/ 4BB PFR) . IN GENERASL OPPONENTS PAY LITTLE ATTENTION TO YOUR BET SIZE PRE OR POST FLOP

AS TO THE ajo GETTING CALLED BY MANY PLAYERS (WHAT STAKES?), I HAVE RARELY RUN INTO A TABLE AT BODOG AT ANY LEVEL WHEN THAT OCCURS, BUT IF IT KEEPS HAPPENING I WOULD MUCK aj- IN EP AND PFR AQ+ AND PAIRS UTG


I appreciate any little info on experiences at bodog.

cheers!

BOTTOM LINE AT BODOG
ABC POKER, BET MADE HANDS FOR VALUE VALUE VALUE
USE POSITION TO MAKE LIFE EASY
ALSO THE VIDEOS I MADE AT BODOG SHOW MANY COMMON SPOTS TO STEAL MANY SMALL POTS

YOU CAN POST ANY HANDS YOU WANT FOR COMMENT

HOPE THIS HELPS
GL HG

test

Hi Hockeguy,

Thanks for the reply. Im continuing my play at 50nl. I know that at Bodog, the games should be easier to beat. And Im confident that I will, Im just trying to get everything straight and making sure Im getting the most out of my game. The past few days I got into some awkward situations in multiway pots and with a maniac to the left of me. Below is an example from what I mentioned earlier. Playing AJo 4-way. Soooh disappointing...I will look for some other hand examples to post

cheers, Erik

***** Hand History for Game 2307488983 ***** (Bodog)
$50.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Tuesday, November 08, 08:33:09 ET 2011
Table Sympa (max 6) (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Seat 1: MP ( $0.00 USD )
Seat 2: CO ( $31.09 USD )
Seat 3: Button ( $97.40 USD )
Seat 4: SB ( $19.80 USD )
Seat 5: BB ( $23.35 USD )
Seat 6: HERO ( $51.10 USD )
SB posts small blind [$0.25 USD].
BB posts big blind [$0.50 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Ad Js ]
HERO raises [$2.00 USD]
CO folds
Button calls [$2.00 USD]
SB calls [$1.75 USD]
BB calls [$1.50 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ Kc, 7s, 6d ]
SB checks
BB checks
HERO checks
Button checks
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9h ]
SB checks
BB checks
HERO checks
Button bets [$5.00 USD]
SB folds
BB folds
HERO folds
Button wins $5.00 USD
Button wins $7.60 USD from main pot

Here are a few examples of my fight against a maniac to the left of me. I didnt like being OOP but didnt consider it a reason to leave the table. Perhaps I should have been more patient and wait for a better hand. This guy made over 200 Bucks in 45 minutes. Not bad at 50nl, but Im sure with his style he wont last long.

I have played 67 hands against him until he left. These are the stats that I gathered:

63/22/29 (vpip/PFR/3bet)
50/62/75 (postflop aggression%) at the river he bet 75% out of 16 times. I have seen him make total bluffs, and not once. I was looking for a decent hand to get the money in. Hand nr 1 was towards the hand of the session, where I had a strong read on his riverplay. It turned out he was slowplaying a set this time. Perhaps I should have been wiser and fold the river, I know second pair is marginal, but his bluffing range was huge.

***** Hand History for Game 2306536133 ***** (Bodog)
$50.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, November 07, 08:20:59 ET 2011
Table Sulquae (max 6) (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Seat 1: EP ( $59.14 USD )
Seat 2: MP ( $46.20 USD )
Seat 3: CO ( $51.05 USD )
Seat 4: HERO ( $46.70 USD )
Seat 5: VILLAIN ( $178.53 USD )
Seat 6: BB ( $20.50 USD )
VILLAIN posts small blind [$0.25 USD].
BB posts big blind [$0.50 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Jh Tc ]
EP folds
MP folds
CO folds
HERO raises [$1.50 USD]
VILLAIN raises [$2.25 USD]
BB folds
HERO calls [$1.00 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ Jc, 6s, Qc ]
VILLAIN checks
HERO checks
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3c ]
VILLAIN checks
HERO checks
** Dealing River ** [ 5d ]
VILLAIN bets [$24.50 USD]
HERO calls [$24.50 USD]
VILLAIN shows [Qh, Qs ]
VILLAIN wins $51.80 USD from main pot

The next hand was from earlier on in the session. This is where he started to show me his crazy moves. I called the raise prflop thinking I would be heads up in position and ahead of raisers range. But as it turned out it was awful. A 3bet might have given me more initative and is probably better. But what if the 3bet gets called multiway? It then costs me a lot of money when I dont hit and not able to make a move against a station.

***** Hand History for Game 2306527451 ***** (Bodog)
$50.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, November 07, 08:09:50 ET 2011
Table Sulquae (max 6) (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Seat 1: Button( $39.53 USD )
Seat 3: SB ( $50.25 USD )
Seat 4: HERO ( $50.00 USD )
Seat 5: VILLAIN ( $163.07 USD )
Seat 6: CO ( $23.25 USD )
SB posts small blind [$0.25 USD].
HERO posts big blind [$0.50 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Qh Ah ]
VILLAIN calls [$0.50 USD]
CO calls [$0.50 USD]
button folds
SB raises [$3.50 USD]
HERO calls [$3.25 USD]
VILLAIN calls [$3.25 USD]
CO folds
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5s, 5d, 3s ]
SB checks
HERO checks
: VILLAIN bets [$5.00 USD]
SB folds
HERO calls [$5.00 USD]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Kd ]
HERO checks
: VILLAIN bets [$1.50 USD]
HERO calls [$1.50 USD]
** Dealing River ** [ Kc ]
HERO checks
VILLAINbets [$18.00 USD]
HERO folds
VILLAIN wins $18.00 USD
VILLAIN shows [4h, Ad ]
VILLAIN wins $23.55 USD from main pot

legian62 wrote:Hi Hockeguy,

Thanks for the reply. Im continuing my play at 50nl. I know that at Bodog, the games should be easier to beat. And Im confident that I will, Im just trying to get everything straight and making sure Im getting the most out of my game. The past few days I got into some awkward situations in multiway pots and with a maniac to the left of me. Below is an example from what I mentioned earlier. Playing AJo 4-way. Soooh disappointing...I will look for some other hand examples to post

cheers, Erik

***** Hand History for Game 2307488983 ***** (Bodog)
$50.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Tuesday, November 08, 08:33:09 ET 2011
Table Sympa (max 6) (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Seat 1: MP ( $0.00 USD )
Seat 2: CO ( $31.09 USD )
Seat 3: Button ( $97.40 USD )
Seat 4: SB ( $19.80 USD )
Seat 5: BB ( $23.35 USD )
Seat 6: HERO ( $51.10 USD )
SB posts small blind [$0.25 USD].
BB posts big blind [$0.50 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Ad Js ]
HERO raises [$2.00 USD]
CO folds
Button calls [$2.00 USD]
SB calls [$1.75 USD]
BB calls [$1.50 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ Kc, 7s, 6d ]
SB checks
BB checks
HERO checks
Button checks
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9h ]
SB checks
BB checks
HERO checks
Button bets [$5.00 USD]
SB folds
BB folds
HERO folds
Button wins $5.00 USD
Button wins $7.60 USD from main pot

not much you can do here
but since 2 of the callers are in blinds it will be profitable in the long run
if 2 or more caller have position on you it is truly hideous

but i would have played the same
i dont expect 3 opponents to fold to a cbet often enough to be profitable and since you have no draws
i just chalk it up to cost of TAG style and move on

hg

legian62 wrote:Here are a few examples of my fight against a maniac to the left of me. I didnt like being OOP but didnt consider it a reason to leave the table. Perhaps I should have been more patient and wait for a better hand. This guy made over 200 Bucks in 45 minutes. Not bad at 50nl, but Im sure with his style he wont last long.

I have played 67 hands against him until he left. These are the stats that I gathered:

63/22/29 (vpip/PFR/3bet)
50/62/75 (postflop aggression%) at the river he bet 75% out of 16 times. I have seen him make total bluffs, and not once. I was looking for a decent hand to get the money in. Hand nr 1 was towards the hand of the session, where I had a strong read on his riverplay. It turned out he was slowplaying a set this time. Perhaps I should have been wiser and fold the river, I know second pair is marginal, but his bluffing range was huge.

***** Hand History for Game 2306536133 ***** (Bodog)
$50.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, November 07, 08:20:59 ET 2011
Table Sulquae (max 6) (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Seat 1: EP ( $59.14 USD )
Seat 2: MP ( $46.20 USD )
Seat 3: CO ( $51.05 USD )
Seat 4: HERO ( $46.70 USD )
Seat 5: VILLAIN ( $178.53 USD )
Seat 6: BB ( $20.50 USD )
VILLAIN posts small blind [$0.25 USD].
BB posts big blind [$0.50 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Jh Tc ]
EP folds
MP folds
CO folds
HERO raises [$1.50 USD]
VILLAIN raises [$2.25 USD]
BB folds
HERO calls [$1.00 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ Jc, 6s, Qc ]
VILLAIN checks
HERO checks
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3c ]
VILLAIN checks
HERO checks
** Dealing River ** [ 5d ]
VILLAIN bets [$24.50 USD]
HERO calls [$24.50 USD]
VILLAIN shows [Qh, Qs ]
VILLAIN wins $51.80 USD from main pot

i would typically fold to his overbet w/ 2nd pair and weak kicker
i am only invested about 4 bb, i can find a better spot since he is a serial river spaz
it typically wont be too long until i have a much better situation
definite note on mn 3 bet QQ vs button, then sloplay check, river overbet w big hand


The next hand was from earlier on in the session. This is where he started to show me his crazy moves. I called the raise prflop thinking I would be heads up in position and ahead of raisers range. But as it turned out it was awful. A 3bet might have given me more initative and is probably better. But what if the 3bet gets called multiway? It then costs me a lot of money when I dont hit and not able to make a move against a station.

***** Hand History for Game 2306527451 ***** (Bodog)
$50.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, November 07, 08:09:50 ET 2011
Table Sulquae (max 6) (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Seat 1: Button( $39.53 USD )
Seat 3: SB ( $50.25 USD )
Seat 4: HERO ( $50.00 USD )
Seat 5: VILLAIN ( $163.07 USD )
Seat 6: CO ( $23.25 USD )
SB posts small blind [$0.25 USD].
HERO posts big blind [$0.50 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Qh Ah ]
VILLAIN calls [$0.50 USD]
CO calls [$0.50 USD]
button folds
SB raises [$3.50 USD]
HERO calls [$3.25 USD]
VILLAIN calls [$3.25 USD]
CO folds
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5s, 5d, 3s ]
SB checks
HERO checks
: VILLAIN bets [$5.00 USD]
SB folds
HERO calls [$5.00 USD]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Kd ]
HERO checks
: VILLAIN bets [$1.50 USD]
HERO calls [$1.50 USD]
** Dealing River ** [ Kc ]
HERO checks
VILLAINbets [$18.00 USD]
HERO folds
VILLAIN wins $18.00 USD
VILLAIN shows [4h, Ad ]
VILLAIN wins $23.55 USD from main pot


again while it can be frustrating when you know the spaz is shoving light/air alot, but patience is key
Especially at these stake level as they never know when to shift gears like better LAGs at higher stakes, they just keep doing the same thing until get a run of cards or go broke. They are a spazzy tool putting alot of $$$$ all over the place, but the only way they can be successful is if they get you playing their style. If you stick to TAG value style they will just give you their stack in big chunks.

I Look to get $$$ in with made hands and let him spazz around until then w/o committing to many chips trying to out spazz him. i typically dont get too frisky w/ draws vs this type since when you make your hand they tend to represent it or call down so their is no value in tossing a coin (since they rarely fold you lose your edge since you have little fold equity you have vs a normal or tight opponent)when you can just wait until you are a huge fave or stone cold lock

as to the preflop, my 3 bet decision is going to be based on the SB, if he is tight i like a call more than a 3 bet, (altough i could find a find AJ- or less and have folded AQo here to avoid being trapped between a probable value hand and spaz- an ugly spot) but AQs+ i think i am calling or 3 betting. i expect to be way ahead of the spaz limper's range so I dont mind getting more $$$$ in vs him. i am perfectly happy to 3 bet and have spaz come along if sb pfr will fold most times. if sb is tight pfr and/or low fold to 3 bet% then i am content to have a big sOOted A in a multiway pot and position on pfr

sometimes you never get a chance to trap/bust some of these spazzes before they go broke or leave, but that beats stacking off to the spaz when you lose patience

hope this helps
gl and maybe i will see you at some 50nl
i have recently been playing Full ring and 6mn 50nl trying to rediscover some discipline
so far it has been working very well, especially compared to some poor results when i drifted away from TAG style

HG

Thanks for all the info. Im still trying to get the hang of it at Bodog. I enjoy the play the most when I can put pressure on opponents. Right now im still involved in too many hands. I need to play slightly less. I will keep the abc-style in mind. Hopefully I will find my way up soon. By the way, my nickname at bodog is BaliDelly. I live in a different time zone but who knows we might end up at the same table at some point.

greetz

Hi HG,

I was watching the first 20 mins of video 156 at 50nl again. You ran really bad and its about the same problems I run into. So that gives me confidence to just grind out the bad luck. But, the next session I made a stupid play (just like your push with the flushdraw that you hated):

***** Hand History for Game 2310218422 ***** (Bodog)
$50.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Friday, November 11, 03:56:02 ET 2011
Table Stogies (max 6) (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Seat 1: VILLAIN ( $61.39 USD )
Seat 2: bt ( $74.45 USD )
Seat 3 SB ( $84.22 USD )
Seat 4: BB ( $29.53 USD )
Seat 5: EP ( $41.62 USD )
Seat 6: HERO ( $49.25 USD )
SB posts small blind [$0.25 USD].
BB posts big blind [$0.50 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO[ Ad As ]
EP folds
HERO raises [$2.00 USD]
VILLAIN calls [$2.00 USD]
bt calls [$2.00 USD]
SB folds
BB folds
** Dealing Flop ** [ Kh, Ts, 9s ]
HERO bets [$5.50 USD]
VILLAIN raises [$15.50 USD]
bt folds
HERO raises [$41.75 USD]
VILLAIN calls [$31.75 USD]
VILLAIN shows [Qc, Js ]
HERO shows [Ad, As ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2d ]
** Dealing River ** [ Qh ]
VILLAIN wins $98.25 USD from main pot

Ouch!! Opponent is 25/21 tag...I should have called the raise on the flop en checkfolded the turn. When things are not going great it's hard to be disciplined in these kind of spots!

On the bright side: yesterday I decided to take it down to 25nl for a little while, and a very friendly player donated $75,- to me in 10 minutes. Her last shove was with 23o on a blank flop. Lol.

hi legion

a cooler there when the guy flops the nuts
but i agree the best flop option is to just call his raise
when opponent raise i am narrowing his range alot

KK unlikely due to preflop action or lack thereof
set 99 or TT very much consistent w/ preflop action
A big draw, in this case almost certainly a combination draw since you hold As to negate normal nut flush
so hands like KsQs, KsJs, 7s8s or other KQ JT type hands that have 15-18 outs would be able and willing to reraise vs a very possible AK by you. We dont want to ignore what opponent thinks our range is when we consider their actions. Opponent could also have AK or even just getting frisky w/ 78 or a naked flush draw. And of course QJ is worst case.

So given his overall range i dont think you can fold on flop. I think it is an easy to check fold if Qs or Js hit. Other scare cards are Qx Jx 8x Kx Tx or any spade as they all complete the combo draws that are likely to have raised flop, so i think i would check fold to most of those as well if oppoent made a decent size bet. If turn blanked i would likely call again since i am still ahead of all but sets and QJ. if tturn blanked and opponent checked behind i would bet any river blank and check fold to any river scare card if opponent made a solid 1/2 pot+ bet. i would likely call a smaller type bet.

The toughest scenario is a turn blank and bet by ooponent. Vs a nitty type i would lean to set/QJ (and less AK since i have AA) and would hope i could find a fold- which is way easier in hindsight than at the table. Vs a more aggro or spazzy type it is even tougher as they could be barreling a big draw. So at some point you have to make a decision based on your opponent and stack size. it is much easier to fold if you are both still very deep ( opponents in general are less willing to make big bluffs or multibarrels w/ very deep stack hands) and harder when you are getting decent odds w/ not much left in stack.

Sometimes i try to justify in my head a poor play as just a cooler, but part of improving as a player is losing less in hands where the poker gods treat you poorly and this looks like one of those hands. If you think about it from a value standpoint on the flop. What hand can the opponent possibly have that you get value from when you raise? Value meaning opponent is wrong to call. Given opponents expected range they will shove hands you trail, they will call or shove any of the big draws due to pot odds and huge equity, and they will fold any kind of wierdo bluff w/ 22. So no value is really possible by raising so best option is to call as a fold is too weak in a heads up hands.

After reading some posts the other day i got to thinking about value and think i will maybe try to make a video to focus on analyzing hands from a value standpoint since that line of thinking really helps me make better decisions- so be on the lookout for that

hope this helps hg