***** Hand History for Game 1111111111 ***** (Bodog)
$50.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, June 08, 10:21:27 ET 2011
Table Motor King (max 6) (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Seat 1: Player1 ( $41.15 USD ) 37/26/10%3b 726 hands 2.8 agression, 4.0 river agression
Seat 2: Player2 ( $30.75 USD )
Seat 3: Player3 ( $66.45 USD )
Seat 4: Player4 ( $22.00 USD )
Seat 5: Player5 ( $50.00 USD ) 28/6 2.0 agression, 36 hands
Seat 6: Hero ( $68.90 USD ) 20/17, 3.8 agression
Player1 posts small blind [$0.25 USD].
Player3 posts big blind [$0.50 USD].
Player4 posts big blind [$0.50 USD].
Player5 posts big blind [$0.50 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Ac Jd ]
Player4 checks
Player5 checks
Hero raises [$2.50 USD]
Player1 calls [$2.25 USD]
Player3 folds
Player4 folds
Player5 calls [$2.00 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4c, Jh, Kd ]
Player1 checks
Player5 checks
Hero checks
** Dealing Turn ** [ Jc ]
Player1 checks
Player5 bets [$4.25 USD]
Hero raises [$11.50 USD]
Player1 calls [$11.50 USD]
Player5 calls [$7.25 USD]
** Dealing River ** [ 5c ]
Player1 bets [$27.15 USD]
Player5 folds
Hero folds
Player1 wins $27.15 USD
Player1 wins $41.00 USD from main pot


So I pretty much gave him credit for a flush here. I thought that a guy like this is pretty much only taking this line with a flush draw because he thinks that he's getting odds to chase if the original raiser calls my reraise. I think he feels like he has to shove on the river because he's oop and he made a hand, so he assumes (correctly) that we will both check behind giving him no value. I don't really beat too much other than QJ and AK. I can't rule out K's or weaker J's completely, but this would be kind of a crazy bluff for him to make against 2 agressors and I only have a set vs a potential boat or flush. The thing is it was only 27 into 41, so I was getting pretty decent odds to call. Any thoughts?

Hi now I`m not an expert but there are a couple of things I would like to comment on.

Preflop:
If I understand u correct there are two "limpers" (people that posted of of turn) in the pot already.
I would have liked to raise a little bigger because of the limpers.

Flop:
Here I would have made a C-bet just to find out where I stand - and don`t give the others a free card on drawing hands.

Turn:
When you don`t C-bet the flop you show weakness and a bet from one of the others must be expected since they have an agro stat på 2,8/2,0.
There are now just a couple of hands that beats you - KK and KJ and pocket 4`s. What are the odds of either of them having that ? (KK would probably reraise you preflop.) Så the danger here are the KJ and 44.
But there are a lot of other hands that you beat.
If you decide to reraised here I would have more so that you can get ride of one of the others or establish that you are beat. Or go for pot controll with the risk of the SB reraising. How fast did the call from the BB come? If it come instant he probably have KK or KJ and you are beat but if he needed time he is drawing most likely.


River:
I think that you are beat and like you I have the tendency to get lured into calling hands like this down to loose a lot of money.

But i would have looked at the play you did preflop and on the flop to improve.
If you had invested more money there you migth have gotten some better ideas of what the guy`s have or get yourself pot comitted

My simple analysis:
I guess he could have like 44, KJs (slowplaying) or like KQc. His average callingrange must be around 10%? He might count in that player5 was calling alot and go for lower suited connectors like QJc etc? He had a high 3bet so he would do that preflop with KK,JJ and AK-AJc from SB and not calling with lower Axc:s?

I would fold the river like u did but I would Cbet the flop cause Im in position? And then revaluate the turn after their actions.

Will be fun to hear what the others say, I always learn something from their better analyses!

/Johan

I think pre is pretty standard, I typically go to 3x on the button so 5x is 3+2 for the limpers. I guess i could go to 6x but that seems like overkill. I feel like I'm still going 3 ways with a 6x raise as compared to 5x so it seems unreasonable to go to 6x.

The reason I didn't cbet the flop is because literally the only hand I can get called with that I beat is QJ. I would much rather check knowing that the only card I'm really going to be concerned about is a queen (maybe a 10 if someone has AQ or a strange Q9). Checking induces bluffs from weaker Ax and value bets from jacks on the turn, though I can't necessarily discern between a king who checked to the agressor and a weaker jack. I still put the same money in the pot by calling the turn though as i would if I raised the flop for value and I have a much higher chance of getting worse hands to put money in the pot than I would if I relied on them calling my flop bet... Pot control seems to be best on the flop.

The turn is an obvious raise imo. The CO is likely betting a king or weaker jack so I have the best hand 9/10 times and I'm probably killing what ever hand he has. I'm only losing to flopped sets and he likely 3 bets KK pre. When I get called oop by the sb It's strange. He really can't rep anything but a slowplayed jack or a flush draw. I guess a set is possible but you would think he would fire the turn to try to get value from any K or J here... A turn lead could be construed as a bluff so by betting he would really polarize his range... He doesn't seem like the type to slow play by his stats anyways.

Then the sb shoves the river and since I have put him on either a weaker jack or a flush draw, i am sort of at a loss. He's beating me with like 3/4 of his range, but at the same time 1/4 of the time I'm winning. I guess if I were to go with the 3/4-1/4 spread on whether I'm winning, It's +ev to fold given my pot odds, but obviously you only get 30 seconds to make your decision lol. idk it's close imo. I'd like some other opinions though.

Great laydown, I agree with how you played it except I'd raise the turn a little larger to around $15 because he's getting too good a price to call with his draw.

I think Player1's turn cold call of your raise and then river donk is a pretty telling line for a completed draw or possibly slowplayed boat, so great fold (as hard as it is to fold trips).

You can potentially c-bet the flop Johan if your opponents are very straightforward and passive. However you can induce some turn bluffs by checking behind and you can potentially bet river for value if turn checks through. It'd also suck to get check-raised on that flop, so checking behind is probably the best play.

Good learning for me. I have to think more like this on the flop. Good example!

Acually, in my coming sessions I will focus on finding those situations on the flop and paste them in this post and see if im getting them right and doing good decisions.

/Johan

Hey again! Got a hand that I think is good to check on the flop cause it can only be called by better? He would prob be afraid of the ace if he had a lower pair. There is a flushdraw and I wonder if that makes a differece? Opponent just sat down. I probably raised abit too low with my queens in the BB against this amount if limpers.

But what about the check?

UTG (€10)
MP (€10)
Button (€10.72)
SB (€9.45)
Hero (BB) (€10.55)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q, Q
UTG checks, 1 fold, Button calls €0.10, SB calls €0.10, Hero bets €0.60, 2 folds, SB calls €0.60

Flop: (€1.30) 7, A, 2 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn: (€1.30) 4 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets €0.90, SB calls €0.90

River: (€3.10) 3 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Total pot: €3.10 | Rake: €0.16

Results:
SB had J, K (high card, Ace).
Hero had Q, Q (one pair, Queens).
Outcome: Hero won €3.09


I will search for more hands with check-opportunities on the flop.

/Johan

i typically play this type of hand the same way w/ QQ or KK when A rag flop
you are either way ahead or way behind and better hands are not folding and worse are not calling and your hand is not very vulnerable, so flop check is pretty standard

if i had something like JJ or lower i would tend to bet and end the hand since there are more over cards that could put me in a bad spot, especially f the opponent is a nitty type that wont raise a draw or bluff. if the opponent was a bluffy lag type i would tend to check and let him bet my hand on the turn. Overall i am more likely to bet smaller pairs and check bigger pairs

if i bet a lower pair and got called on flop i would then be looking to get to showdown w/ a pair that has showdown value, if i got raised on flop i would have to fold to tighter players and most looser players as well. if opponent checks turn after i checked behind on flop i would be betting like you did to give them a chance to call w/ worse, although i will expect to run into a few weak Aces at showdown.

overall well played

gl hg

I think the flush draw is insignificant here. The only way it would justify a bet is if you think he is going to call a bet if he has a flush draw AND you think the flush draw is a more significant part of his range than an ace. I would guess that he has an ace like 4X as often here as he a flush draw so a value bet to specifically get value from a flush draw would be kind of worthless. I think you played it right. Betting the turn is a very good idea because you actually ARE going to see a huge part of his calling range be a flush draw because now he only needs to have one diamond in his hand to call you. If he's raising the turn or river you might have to reconsider the value of your hand but played well imo.