The later period of my pokerplaying I have started to use 3bet more and more. I like to use it in position regulary against the opponents with a "fold to 3bet" of over 70% or if they have a high "fold to Cbet in 3betpot" of like 60%+.

The thing im putting in some thoughts on atm is how high their PFR% on that specific pos they sitting on and how high their 4bet is compared to that. I am abit confused and unsecure about this. Im currently playing on 20€ NL, 5max tables.

Say, if a opponent sitting on middle position with a PFR of 25% and have a "fold to 3bet" of 75%. He has a 4bet (when initial raiser) of 20%.

If I 3bet him and he 4bet me and we havent been into any recently fights his range till be 20% of 25% = 5%?. So with a pair of QQ I should 5bet-shove him?
If another opponent has a PFR of 15% and the rest of the stats the same as above, he would have his 4bet range to 20% of 15% = 3%. Here im a underdog to his range with my QQ for example? Is this the way to think about this?
And then if I get some signs that the 15% PFR starting to 4bet with a wider range (and this is acually true) I would go 5bet-shove with my queens more often?

Atm when im playing and I get 4beted I usually end up loosing against most of players with my QQ. So I have started to stop playing those against the 15% PFR opponent above. In those cases I often have been pretty aggressive at the table for a while to give an image of a maniac (23PFR, 3bet of 25%+) and I then think that they have started to play heavely back at me. But when they 4bet they usually have had the top 2-3% hands, except the more loose aggressive ones. Shall I only continue to play back at those 4bets against the loose aggressive ones? I know this cant be answered exacly but what is there to think about all this 3bet/4bet in this manner?

Appreciate every answer!

/JohanW

johanw wrote:
Atm when im playing and I get 4beted I usually end up loosing against most of players with my QQ. So I have started to stop playing those against the 15% PFR opponent above. In those cases I often have been pretty aggressive at the table for a while to give an image of a maniac (23PFR, 3bet of 25%+) and I then think that they have started to play heavely back at me. But when they 4bet they usually have had the top 2-3% hands, except the more loose aggressive ones. Shall I only continue to play back at those 4bets against the loose aggressive ones? I know this cant be answered exacly but what is there to think about all this 3bet/4bet in this manner?

Appreciate every answer!

/JohanW

i think you answer your own question in this last paragraph, it is good you are recognizing and using the power of 3 betting in position and have probably noticed most other players at these levels dont use the 3 bet enough except the laggy types, ergo if most players dont 3 bet enough they certainly are not 4 betting light (except the lagasauroses) so your observation that QQ is usually in trouble except vs lags is typically going to be the correct. So unless the opponent has very few chips behind or you are getting very good pot/implied odds i think you are wise to let QQ go vs non lags at this level

also beware of 4 bets stats since most players do it so rarely it takes a very large sample to give accurate 4 bets stats. i have made that mistake way too many times when a guy sat down and splashed around raising and 3 betting alot and a couple 4 bets that made their 4 bet stats look huge. Virtually any time i believed 4 bet stats i ended up eating AA or KK

gl and keep up the aggressive play

hg

I love your thinking Johan... you are definitely on your way to moving up the levels.

You are exactly right with analyzing someone's 3bet range and 5bet pushing range like that. In some instances, it is indeed -ev to get it in with QQ. Some weak-tight players will never adjust to your 3bet aggression - so they will continue to fold with their 70% fold to 3bet rate, and then only push back when they have QQ+ (ie. your second example). What you can do in this case to exploit these weak-tight types is to polarize your 3betting range. Continue to 3bet them constantly, but instead of 3betting with your marginal hands that you aren't comfortable pushing with preflop is to smooth call them (ie. JJ and perhaps QQ). Pick the top range of the hands that you'd usually fold to their pre-flop raise (ie. A7s) and 3bet them relentlessly. And obviously do it with AA and KK (perhaps AK) as well. People at lower stakes are very poor at adjusting to aggression from certain people so you can exploit them endlessly.

Continue to analyze how they play back. If they start 4betting you lighter then start adding more hands to your value 5bet range (ie. QQ and JJ).

This levelling goes on endlessly. At 5/10nl against tough opponents I'm sometimes 5-bet pushing 66 for value (and meta-game purposes).

Keep thinking and analyzing like you are and you'll be beating 100nl in no time! It's still filled with weak-tight regs who can't adjust.

Cheers,
Tim

Thanks for your answers guys! It really helps me and it feels nice to hear that im going in the right direction with my thoughts about my game, the opponents and the stats about them.

Tim, I will try to use your advice to "polarize" my 3bet range against those weaker tight ones. Always fun to try new things! Sometimes (pretty often) it can cost a bit, BUT, I end up abit more "pokerwise" everytime! Experience has a price!

HG, I will try to watch the 4bet statistics abit more. I often hold the mousepointer over the stat and see how many situations its based on. If its below 10 (for example 4bet when initial raiser) I will not go by that information. The further it grows I will lean towards it more.

Thanks again for your words!

/JohanW

the best weapon agianst the 4bet is the 5bet obv.. more often then not you get people to fold 100bb plus these days.. the game is so aggro atm that you get best of the tight and the loose players .. the tight ones will fold often and only call/6bet with better hands and the loose ones will fold most of the time because they got no hand... easy game

Hi Johan!

thanks for your interesting post. Imagine this, I was on holiday in the southern part of Thailand. I was in a small island (Ko Lanta) with nothing much to do. I went to the internet cafe, read your post, printed it and thinking about it in my bungalow.

For me the most important difference i notice between the 25nl and 50nl is that you encounter some players that are quite agressive. My new goal will be to analyse the different situations in which I encounter agression and think of the best way to play. The next few weeks I will post some of my questions and analysis on agression (preflop as well as postflop).

Anyways thanks for providing me with some reading material on my trip haha.

Erik

Hi Johan

It looks like you are on tthe right path thinking about the entire situation when you play a hand and this is an interesting topic

as i have moved up stakes i have run into more 4 betting situations that dont happen as often at the lower micros ( if they 3 bet they usually just shove). A few days ago I ran into a really unusual string of 4 bets at the 50nl level of my microstakees bakroll challenge where i got 4 bet like 6 times in about 1/2 hour. 4 of these were by the pfr after i 3 bet( by the same guy) which made me very frustrated and curious. Some of the 4 bets were shoves and some were 2.5x or 3x that reeked of value reraises. As you move up players dont necessarily instashove AA KK. In all cases i ended up folding since i was oop, 3 betting light, up against and unknown player/TAGGy player, the raise/4bet came from UTG, or some combination of these. That being said i didn't like folding even though i am quite sure i was way behind most/every time. Interesting, i saw a day or 2 later the guy that 4 bet me twice after i 3 bet him did the same thing w/ a 4 bet shove from utg w/ TT, much lighter than i expected so i made a note on him.

The main reason i folded (see Harrington thought below) was none of the 4 bettors was very active 3 betting, typically 2.5%-4.0%, so if they are solidly in the value/only big pairs range for 3 betting, i dont expect them to be 4 betting anything but big hands. Which brings me to the point i wanted to make. It is great and neccesary to be thinking about your opponents hand and style to become successful playing poker, but you don't want to be too clever by half. By this i mean giving the opponent credit for thinking that they are not capable of (and i do this all the time) he must be bluffing a busted draw or some other clever move. As i have gotten better and moved up levels i have too frequently given too many opponents too much credit for thinking and playing better than they actually were capable of (This was also part of my bad payoff run at the 25nl level of the microbankroll challenge, i didnt adjust my thinking back to the typical thinking level of most 25nl players) Yikes, i hope that doesnt sound too arrogant. Hopefully an example will demonstrate the point.

Lets assume we are a thinking and observant player
We are learning the game
we are trying to learn how to evaluate common situations and opponent styles(this was my biggest struggle when i joined OP)

General Situation
You raze preflop and make a Cbet
case 1- you get min check raised by a loose aggressive player, you have seen the opponent do this several times before and take down the pot vs other players including yourself once

What should you do?

case 2- you get min check raised by a loose passive player, you have not seen the opponent do this before
What should you do?

REmembering the various levels of thinking are roughly
Level 1- Look at my cards, Yeah me i have a hand
Level 2- Look at my cards, Yeah me i have a hand, but i wonder what the other guy has?
Level 3- Look at my cards, Yeah me i have a hand, but what does he have AND what does he think i have?
Level 4- Look at my cards, Yeah me i have a hand, but what does he have AND what does he think i have AND what does he think i think he has?

notice level 3 and 4 come into play for river value bets
After this it gets complicated

The vast majority of players at the micros spend almost all of their time at level 1 and 2 in some way or another- for instance

Passive players- they are waiting for a big hand ie Level 1, and strangely Level 2 since he is always concerned the opponent has a good hand, thusly no bet until they have a very good hand

Loose Aggressive player (not maniacal)- They bet more knowing opponent probably missed the flop or is too weak to call ie Level 2 thinking, when they get raised they go back to Level 1, fold air/weak hands or go with any decent hand, (notice they should go to Level 3) this is why you can abuse LAGS w/ timely aggression and patience for big hands which you have set up for action w/ previous aggression.

notice Cbets are very much level 1 and 2, The deeper into the hand the higher level thinking you should be using, fortunately most microplayers do the exact opposite- they revert to level 1 making them very easy to read

So back to case 1 and 2

You raze preflop and make a Cbet
case 1- you get min check raised by a loose aggressive player, you have seen the opponent do this several times before and take down the pot vs other players including yourself once

What should you do?
You will need to reraise this type player w/ any decent made hand and draws or occassionally just overcards or he will keep doing it. You can also call a dry flop and reevalute/bet/raise the turn. Notice if you only playback w/ big hands you become the passive easy to read player that will never get action when you finally hit a big hand. The worst thing that can happen is to let opponent cramp your aggressive style and take control of the play. The best defense is a good offense

case 2- you get min check raised by a loose passive player, you have not seen the opponent do this before
What should you do? This is typically a fold unless you have a very strong hand/big draw. These players dont bluff, they dont semibluff. They bet big made hands, they bet small, especially heads up, as they fear folders that wont payoff their big hand.

Notice the levels of thinking, vs mr passive level 1 we want to be level 2, but vs mr level 2 we want to be level 3. If we employ level 3 vs Mr passive we will get ourselves into a whole heap of trouble, Can you say AA loses to his set? If we employ level 1 vs mr aggressive we turn oursleves into mr passive TAG, a common and easily pushed around microplayer, aka TAGFISH, i know i was one when i came to OP( and i still fight that impulse). Using level 4 thinking vs mr aggressive will also cause issues, if he has a good hand he will go with it, if not he will use level 2 thinking and give you credit and fold. If you think he realizes you know he has nothing and so you reraised w/ nothing and therefore he will rereraise light, you will be screwed as his 4 bet is rarely light (except if he is a total maniac, but that is a diferent and easily recognized situation) remember the deeper into the hand the more microplayers regress to level 1 thinking, ie what are my cards

So bottom line is you want to be thinking one level above your opponent. Of course opponents do move between levels and can sometimes fool you, but most microplayers spend most of their time at their comfort level and therefore are easy to read. The other thing to remember is that the deeper into the hand the more they tend to regress to level 1 thinking which makes them easy to read. Which brings us back to 4 betting. When you get 4 bet you are essentially deeper into the hand so the more the opponent is playing their 2 cards and therefore likely to have a very strong hand.

The also applies to a post i saw the other day regarding being check raised, a turn checkraise is typically far more dangerous than a flop checkraise as the opponent is typically back to level 2 thinking.

In general what i have seen moving up stakes is that the players become "better" at level 1 and 2 thinking, with some playing at solid level 3 thinking, and a few players venture into some level 4 thinking. However, i get myself into trouble when i start thinking every opponent is level 3 or 4 thinking.

At the end of the day i try to remember a thought from Dan Harrington
most bets mean what they look like, especially from bad players
i give credit to virtually all 4 bets at 50nl and lower, it is too costly to try to pick off they rare light 4 bet from any non maniac. I get it in vs a 4 bet w/ AA (no shit sherlock) KK always, AK (My AK cuts mathematical odds opponent has AA or KK by 50% from 1/20 to 1/40, obviously real odds are much less than that since a 4 bet is unlikely with most other hands), and sometime QQ depending on pot odds and opponent. You can use pokerstove to determine pot odds needed to call if you knew opponent had only AA KK or AK

hope this is helpful

hg

OOPS

hockeyguy wrote:Hi Johan

The also applies to a post i saw the other day regarding being check raised, a turn checkraise is typically far more dangerous than a flop checkraise at micros as the opponent is typically back to level 1 thinking. ie Look at my cards i have a big hand WHOO HOO

hg

Thanks for your post HockeyGuy! I have to be short, no time atm.

Im totally with u with the levels. I think Im going between level 2 and 3 at the 20€ stakes im on atm. Im thinking in level4-terms sometimes but I dont use it often and in the rare cases when I have done, I have often met a better hand. They didnt think as deep as I thought, they did acually have a hand.

When I have been really aggressive at a table and I see that players are getting sick with me. Especially the LAGs. I do go 5-bet-shove with QQ and AK. It depends all about the player. I do it with AQ aswell if there is a really preflop-aggressive player.

Thanks again for your post, hope others read it aswell. Thanks for all good training-movies!

/JohanW

interesting topic so i did a little research to see if my theory was right

The 4 bet post got me curious so i went and looked at HM to see if i was right
Namely are most 4 bets at micros AA KK AK some QQ and a few lessor hands
Below are the preflop 4 bet hands i played out of 22K hands
Twenty two 4 bet pots total, most vs short stacks
Out of 150K+ hands between 10nl and 200nl i was only in 108 4 bet pots total
The same general pattern was true, most vs short stacks who show up way weaker than a full stack
Also notice the other weaker hands tend to show up in blind vs blind


200nl My hand Opponent hand Opponent was short stacked or Total LAG/MANIAC
AA 77 55/44/28 preflop 400+ hands
AK AA
JJ QJo 1/3 stack

100nl AQ TT ¼ STACK
AA KK ¾ STACK
AK Q9o 1/3 stack
JJ AK ½ STACK
KJ AK ¼ STACK
JJ tt 1/3 STACK
AK 66 1/2 STACK
KK 77 TAG OVERPLAYED 77
AK KK
BLINDS AA TT 57/21/18 preflop 150+ hands
BLINDS KK AQ
JJ KQo ¼ STACK
AA KK
AA QQ

CO vs BUTTON (Me)
89s AKs he makes mn 4 bet to price me in- FYI not a good play
by me to 3 bet 89s
AK KK
AQs AK ¼ STACK
AA 64o ¼ STACK


Summary both full stacked
AA 77 55/44/28 preflop 400+ hands
AK AA
AK KK
AA KK
AA QQ
AK KK
BLINDS AA TT 57/21/18 preflop 150+ hands
BLINDS KK AQ
KK 77 TAG OVERPLAYED 77

18 hands total in the 9 pots played
AA 5 TIMES
KK 5 TIMES
AK 3 TIMES
QQ 1 TIMES
77 2 TIMES
AQ 1 TIMES
TT 1 TIMES

SO AA KK AK shows up 13/18 hands- 72% of the time
77 SHOWS up twice w/ maniacs
QQ shows up once w/ a TAG
TT shows up once w/ a TAG in sb vs bb
77 shows up once w/ a TAG who just overplayed his hand, easy call since i had AA, i would have folded all other hands except KK


I think this should answer questions about what to do if you get four bet
I imagine the results are similar for most of your stat database, it also shows how you can use filter to determine how to proceed in certain situations

Hope this helps
hg