How do you avoid paying the donks when the won't bet. They will only call and I tend to build a pot only to pay off their monster hand. I must admit that I am getting better and I'm getting better at saving my bets when they hit their hands, but not always. Some of my biggest losses are pots driven by me. It really makes me feel like a fool.

Hi Scott, I know what you mean, been there, done that. If I have the monster I will keep betting for value. Board texture considerations are huge. Checking is not out of the question if they call, to try and see where they are. And if they check back I am more inclined to bet again. Lots of micro players love to slow play and when we keep betting with good but not great hands they profit. I am sure hg or atta can answer this much better but thats my 2 cent. GL Cliff

hi guys

Paying off passive calling donks is a road travelled by all and is basically unavoidable. To avoid paying them off you turn into a passive donk and dont bet for fear of being beat. Since you can never be sure you end up missing value vs the passive donks and other opponents as well. It took me a while for this to sink in after watching Tims videos, but you must take a long term view. Your aggressive betting vs all opponents does several things

1) gets maximum value from a large majority of your hands- the single biggest error by micro players is missed value
2) allows you to save money when you are beat when you have a marginal hand. When you get raised you know you beat and simply fold
3) allows you to win many pots w/o a hand when opponents fold fearing they may have to call more bigger bets later in the hand
4) makes you hard to read since your bets dont mean the same thing everytime

The passive play by your opponents

1) misses huge amount of value from the large majority of their hands
2) causes them to be very readable since when you get raised by them you know you are beat and simply fold weaker hands
3) rarely allows them to win many pots w/o a hand since if they dont bet w/ a big hand they certainly dont bet much w/o a hand
4) allows them to occasionally trap an opponent that keeps betting

The 4 items for the aggressive player are all good. The only good item for the passive player is the one you mentioned. While it is annoying, it is also relatively rare. It is kind of like AA getting beat, you remember all of them and not too many of the hands AA wins. AA is a winner long term, same thing w/ betting vs passive players, you remember the big loss, but not the many many smaller pots that the passive donk called down w/ weak hands. In the long term the many wins add up to WAYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!! more than the losses. Bottom line is paying off the occasional passive donk is a cost of business to get maximum value from the rest of your hands.

One adjustment i like to make vs a passive donk is to bet a little bigger than normal since most passive players are loose and will call down hand after hand and i get extra value again and again. In my experience this also tends to get a passive player to get excited and reraise which turns their hand face up letting you fold weak hands and save money.

hope this helps hg

Long term view is the answer for me. I just wait for the right spot, sometimes it comes, sometimes someone else will get it. I got dealt AA in the BB, the donk was UTG+2 in a full ring and overbet, one other called and i called knowing he's going to bet aggressively and will do my value betting for me. Flop comes out J, J, 9. Jacks were in his range, but he put out the same bet. Eventually the ace came out and he shoved half his stack, i reraised and he shoved all in. Knocked him and the other player out. He had an AJ.

Thing is to think long term, their play can only last so long. I was the donk for a while too, and lost money over the long term, made some short term. I'll take the long term profit rather than one big upswing and several small downswings that cost more. LOL

If you watch the videos, the amount of patience exhibited is frustrating, but look at the bottom line... It's also profitable long term.

Nice discussion guys!

I like to watch the "aggression by street" on those players. If they have like a low aggression on all streets, just bet them on every street with your made hands untill they reraise (then evaluate) or if the board is getting really scary, slow down or fold.

Another nice player like this is the ones with low aggression on flop and turn with an alot higher aggression on the river. When I have hit my hand and im out of position I check alot on river to make them do a cracy bluff. I do this especially when there is a straith och flush draw on the board that havent been filled.

Johan

Just curious, what game are you playing? SNG's, cash or MTT's? Cash, I will take them on, very profitable. MTT's and SNG's I have had to adjust because they are all over, but think i found a way around it.

great point by Johan on the aggression by street stats

i basically just play cash games so my comments are directed at those games

hg

Just got my tail handed to me by an 83 VPIP and 8 PFR calling station. He didn't make a single raise and he called everyone to showdown. Now I know that he will lose it back, but it doesn't do me much good if he loses it to someone else.

I don't mean to whine... okay, yes I do, but Phil Helmuth does it and he doesn't do too bad. Seriously, I just had to let off some steam.

Now it's back to the tables.

must be in the air

i got my arse handed to me playing some limit last night by a 90+ vpip/50+ pfr clown and a couple of his 60+/2 clown friends. I lost about 90 big blinds in every way imagineable, but they will lose it back and it will funnel back to the tables in other players stacks so C'est La vie. gotta feed the fish sometimes to keep the aquarium healthy. i just prefer others do the feeding-LOL

hg

You finished the tournament in 1st place. A USD 13.50 award has been credited to your Real Money account.

You earned 45 Sit & Go Leader Board Points for the Mars Division in this tournament.

You have also received USD 6.75 in Knockout Bounties for this tournament. You won bounties for the following players: bridgie2, tomitza777, lepsztyk, rekia, LenaChern, Epakfailer, ShWED 2103, poky2323, HERO
Note: As you won the tournament, you also won your own bounty.

This was from a $4.10 9 player SNG. There were 3 taggy players, one who played pretty much every hand. I had to fold ak, aq, qq, kk, jj several times just because the board flop and how many players on the flop. But through very careful note taking and patience, was able to get some more hands and exploit every one of them. Had to adapt to their level of play to take them down. That meant limp calling and let them put their chips in while showing very little aggression. Kinda let them feel they were dominating the hand so they could put in all their chips with a smile on their face.

I was getting frustrated losing AA hands in these types of games, and started playing taggy too for a while. But consistent play with a few good hands goes a long way. Out of 8 various SNG's these past two days, cashed 6. 1st on 3 of them, 2 seconds and one inside the bubble.

Just trying to say what is taught here works over the long term. Sometimes you may just be getting cold hands the whole game which can happen. The only other thing is are you playing off emotion and getting pissed off with the "i will make you pay" attitude and thus deviating from A game to C game?