In this situation I had 3 bet a preflop raiser.
I don't have many hands on the guy and was unsure what to do here.

villain stats. no.of hands just 143
Raise 1st in EP 20/MP 25/CO 20/BTN 43/SB 60

he had raised me from the cut off.

his 3bet% - 3.7
his 4bet% 20 / 4bet range 4.1%

At lower stakes do peoples 4bet range change much depending on position?
In my experience most of the players know which hands they will 4bet with or get
allin with and kind of stick to them. Does anyone agree with this?
Also I don't feel that people adjust to other players aggressive 3-4 betting
as they are just playing their cards at lower stakes.

His 3bet range is very tight so i figured his 4bet stats might be a bit misleading,
maybe due to a good run of preflop starting hands. So i figured his 4bet range here would most
likely be about 2.5% QQ-AA,AK. I hadnt seen him show down any 4bet hands yet.
I folded AK and now I feel i need to take some time out to finally grow a pair of testicles!

any thoughts on how i should have played this or even about testicular growth would be great!

I played someone like this recently. My note read, 'aggression is his hole cards'. So, i had to wait for the right spot to play back at him. Did not get the chance though. Others though, i felt they used their position to aggress, so i would come back over the top on them and that would slow them down.

Seems he had high vpip though, so he was playing a wide range of hands. It would seem that you would have to play a hand with showdown value, he will probably go all in on you. Thing is though, he will pay you off pretty good though once you do playback at him.

Hi Jimmy

One thing you didnt mention was stack size. Smaller stacked micro opponents tend to stack of lighter than full/deep stacks. Coincidentally they tend to offer you better pot odds to call a 4 bet w/ AK and can hurt you less if you run into AA or KK which are the only 2 hands that you dont want to see. Every other hand your AK is priced in. Taggy micros tend to not want to get it in w/ full/deep stack w/ QQ or worse. And even w/ QQ tend to 3 bet them and call a 4 bet praying no A or K, or A q hits the flop. Or pfr and call a 3 bet and again pray no A or K, or A q hits the flop. In my experience AK is bad shape far more often than not

in my experience, especially at 50nl and lower, players are only playing their cards when they 4 bet. With the exception of the obvious spaz that will get it in light, typically with a 1/2 stack or less, i expect to see qq+ or AK when i got 4 bet from any full stacked opponent. Even if they pfr a wider range than the typical OP style (16% -20%) and even if they 3 bet a very wide range like 15 or 18%, they still almost always show up w/ the same tight strong range when they 4 bet raise w/ a full stack, but they will call a 4 bet (or push 5 bet) if they only have a little left if they call- again typically by a non full stacked opponent. These very +ev to 4 bet w/ AK

Although one can pick HH to support any point you want to make. i didnt have to look fae to find these 2 hh since they are very respresentative of the results i have observed in the situations. Here are 2 hh that i played this week that i think demonstrate the point i was trying to make.


Why 4 bet AK vs partial stacks, huge + ev at micros

***** Hand History for Game 2120677846 ***** (Bodog)
$100.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Sunday, March 13, 07:23:35 ET 2011
Table Lepoles (max 6) (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Seat 1: EsquilaxGT ( $117.20 USD )
Seat 2: hockeyguy99 ( $93.05 USD )
Seat 3: yeagolf4me ( $108.15 USD )
Seat 4: R0n Jeremy ( $62.33 USD )
Seat 5: SeanL7 ( $48.65 USD )
Seat 6: Giddeyup ( $105.90 USD )
hockeyguy99 posts small blind [$0.50 USD].
yeagolf4me posts big blind [$1.00 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to hockeyguy99 [ Kc Ah ]
R0n Jeremy calls [$1.00 USD]
SeanL7 raises [$2.00 USD] 23 hands

opponent stats- 74 hands
68/14 vpip/pfr
33/0/33/0/0/- pfr by position
Giddeyup folds
hockeyguy99 raises [$7.50 USD]
yeagolf4me folds
R0n Jeremy folds
SeanL7 raises [$18.00 USD]
hockeyguy99 raises [$54.00 USD]
SeanL7 calls [$28.65 USD]
hockeyguy99 wins $13.35 USD
hockeyguy99 shows [Kc, Ah ]
SeanL7 shows [Qs, Kd ]
** Dealing Flop ** [ Ks, Ad, 9d ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9s ]
** Dealing River ** [ Jd ]
hockeyguy99 shows [Kc, Ah ]
SeanL7 shows [Qs, Kd ]
hockeyguy99 wins $97.30 USD from main pot

the guy w/ KQ has sketchier vpip/pfr stats than opponent you mentioned, but he still shows up w/ a VERY easily dominated hand in a 5 bet pot w/ a partial stack





***** Hand History for Game 2121386177 ***** (Bodog)
$100.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, March 14, 08:44:01 ET 2011
Table Brudan (max 6) (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Seat 1: dp_72 ( $93.70 USD )
Seat 2: SCREWUP ( $153.40 USD )
Seat 4: Copasetic ( $161.70 USD )
Seat 5: rEDLiNe27 ( $10.67 USD )
Seat 6: hockeyguy99 ( $160.90 USD )
hockeyguy99 posts small blind [$0.50 USD].
dp_72 posts big blind [$1.00 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to hockeyguy99 [ Kd Ah ]
SCREWUP folds
Copasetic raises [$3.00 USD] 1.1K hands
25/19/6.1
26/22/27/43/33/-
rEDLiNe27 folds
hockeyguy99 raises [$11.50 USD]
dp_72 folds
Copasetic raises [$27.00 USD]
hockeyguy99 raises [$63.00 USD]
Copasetic raises [$131.70 USD] a 6 bet push i was pretty sure i was in bad shape
but pot odds 200/85= 2.3/1 makes it tough to fold since only AA make a cal -EV
plus the opponent is solid winning regular capable of adjusting to my common 3 bet blind defense
i would expect him to do this w/ AA KK AK and maybe QQ given our overall history and several hands earlier this session in the same type of situation
hockeyguy99 calls [$85.90 USD]
Copasetic wins $0.80 USD
Copasetic shows [Ac, As ] deep sigh, but not surprised
hockeyguy99 shows [Kd, Ah ]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 7d, 5h, Kc ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9c ]
** Dealing River ** [ Ts ]
hockeyguy99 shows [Kd, Ah ]
Copasetic shows [Ac, As ]
Copasetic wins $320.80 USD from main pot


and poker stove says


equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 18.474% 17.93% 00.54% 1842395 55570.50 { AcKd }
Hand 1: 81.526% 80.99% 00.54% 8320288 55570.50 { KK+ }



equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 37.057% 08.19% 28.87% 2103653 7414334.50 { AcKd }
Hand 1: 62.943% 34.08% 28.87% 8752238 7414334.50 { KK+, AKs, AKo }


equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 38.824% 18.14% 20.68% 6524615 7436014.00 { AcKd }
Hand 1: 61.176% 40.50% 20.68% 14561741 7436014.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }


So vs KK+ i am -EV (-12%), since 2.3/1 pot odds needs 30% to break even
vs AK, KK+ i am + EV (+7%)
vs AK, QQ+ i am + EV (+8%)
basically the same as second since AK vs QQ is a flip which is interesting

furthermore
since i have AK there are 3 A and 3 K left so
3 possible combos AA
3 possible combos KK
12 possible combos AK

so if they opponent cant 6 bet AK and/or QQ, i should fold, if he could 6 bet lighter i should call

notice the rat bastard w/ AA is tighter vpip/pfr than opponent you mentioned, but almost twice the 3 bet
and he still shows up w/ AA in a 6 bet pot w/ deep stacks

Overall i think the key difference in these 2 hands is stack size. I expect the partial stack to get in lighter and the deep guy to get in tighter. In the first i am more likely to be substanial favorite and the dowside is far less if i am wrong. Sadly the opposite is in deep pot, i am more likely to be behind and if i am it will leave a mark if i lose.

i would be interested in thoughts on the deep hand as i dont like they way i played it

thanks hg

both of our stack sizes were deep. the effective stack was around 150 bbs. i would have just pushed vs a shorter stack, like you said,and like the example hand you showed, they tend to push a much wider range.

Just curious hockeyguy, when your playing... are you doing the math on the hands you choose to get into? It may be second nature to you now and semi automatic. Im not doing these calculations, but kind of rating the value of my hand. The big thing i watch for is tendencies of the other players, their range and mistakes. Granted, im at the low stakes working on building a bankroll, so variance might be higher.

I can post the entire hand, but want to keep this simple. I was dealt 9h,8s. UTG standard raises, I call MP, sb calls. My read was SB has ace or king, and weak kicker. UTG has AK,AQ, or A,X because he did not go ballistic on preflop raise, he would normally overbet at some point... Long story shortened.. He does get it all in, i have him well covered. Pair my nine, no overcards on the board, no draws...sb folded on flop with UTG's overbet. Its a 15.00 pot, minus .74 rake. He had ah,2h. This was a .05/.10 6max table, ended up making 3.5 buy ins.

I was not glued to this hand, just thought i had the right read. I could have given up the hand at any time. My only concern is I can't use math to explain my decision here, but know long term it would be a good idea.

Good question

when i am playing well i am thinking about opponents range vs my hand which can include some math like my AJ is 7/3 dog to AQ or AK, or 7/3 fave or AT-, but more a combination of the chances opponent will
0) fold to aggression by me preflop
1) hit flop
2) cbet
3) fold or not fold to aggression by me postflop

The math above in other post is something i try to do is spots that made my head hurt during live play when i really wasnt sure what the proper move was vs opponents range. Which is the point i was trying to make w/ AK vs a partial stack is a never fold, but vs a solid opponent in a 6 bet preflop pot when both are deep may or may not be a fold based on opponents different likely range and stack size. As it turns out once i 5 bet it was a spot i hated and was uncomfortable being in. In hindsight i think a call of his 4 bet would have been better, but i dont much like it either since i would not get much action from worse on the flop if i pair up. I also dont much like a fold to his 4 bet. I dont think i have ever been in the situation of getting 6 bet before when i had AK, so i was in uncharted waters and ended up drowning. but some work away from table and i should be more prepared in future for siilar situations

As to the hand you described, i would like to have some more info, opponent style/stats, stack size, recent history w/ opponent, other opponents at table in lp, stake level. All that being said, i dont really like the 89o cold call in mp as it can put you in a lot of tough spots if there is a call or raise from lp opponent, or a check by sb and Cbet by utg you are pinched betwween which can be ugly as well. Additionally 98o will flop a lot of medium strength hands that could lead to trouble. Apparently you had a solid read on villian as you took a big pot w/ a pair of nines w/ virtually worthless kicker (Thinking about 9x hands even a loose player would pfr utg, A9 k9, j9,t9, 99, 98, maybe 97s?, but almost never 96 or worse) In general in spite of this good result, i dont think a pair of nines is the hand you want to play a lot of big pots and expect a good long term results. if you are ahead it may not be by much, but if you are behind you may be in bad shape.

one other math thing
2 connected cards preflop flop 8 out draw 9%, make str8 by river 6%
2 sOOted cards preflop flop 9 out draw 9%, make flush by river 5%
flop 2 pair 2%
Flop trips 1.5%
notice sooted connectors have a big edge 14.5% to 9.5% chance of flopping playing hand

overall most of the math i think about is when the opponent is the aggressor like preflop my hand vs his range or in all in situations, or if have drawing odds or good enough implied odds to chase a well concealed hand like a set or gutshot to the nuts.

i started out playing limit so i got a lot of practice at the math/

hope this helps
hg

I normally do not play this hand much, except when i get impatient and start to gamble... Big leak of mine. But at this table, just called the PF raise based on my read of opponent and rest of table. Read was not coming in with a pair, but two over cards and he would bet it to death. Yes, it was a big risk for me, but it definitely was not just call and see what happens.

My big read was he was playing two overcards and he can't let go of them at all, will shove to defend them at all costs. Its rare, but some players range's are so narrow, that depending on their initial bet and post flop play, you can put them on two cards and they only consider their hand strength. The rest of the table avoided any aggression like 3bets, cbets, etc,.. Had any a,k,q, j come up, it was an easy fold.

Im not trying to determine if 9,8 os is a good long-term hand. Just other situations where you get the headache's on figuring whether to call or not long term say on a a,k suited and board comes out dry and you get shoved on without initial aggression by your opponent.

here's an example:
Read on villain is he is ABC poker, bets in position all the time unless his hand is very weak. He usually would fold when i bet in position. vpip/pfr 19/18. He is a good player, did not see any major flaws in his play, he was playing the rest of the table like i was, so i took it that he had good reads on everyone else, which told me he was thinking... which to me equals good player. His range was wide, so he may have had any pocket pair or two hearts, j/t, a/t... I felt his bet was trying to push me off, or he paired the ten or had heart flush draw... I felt it was around 2-1 odds to call here. If I shoved over him, he was capable of re-raising. So, with too many questions in my head, opted to fold.

PokerStars Game #59632564135: Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10 USD) - 2011/03/22 11:20:13 HST [2011/03/22 17:20:13 ET]
Table 'Lavonne VII' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: spens77754 ($8.99 in chips)
Seat 2: GreatJohnnie ($13.02 in chips)
Seat 4: JAI96 ($18.46 in chips)
Seat 5: Sane4eg1985 ($19.59 in chips)
Seat 6: pkevinkotam ($10 in chips)
GreatJohnnie: posts small blind $0.05
JAI96: posts big blind $0.10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to JAI96 [As Ks]
Sane4eg1985: folds
pkevinkotam: folds
spens77754: folds
GreatJohnnie: raises $0.20 to $0.30
JAI96: raises $0.30 to $0.60
GreatJohnnie: calls $0.30
*** FLOP *** [6s 9h Th]
GreatJohnnie: checks
JAI96: bets $0.60
GreatJohnnie: raises $1.85 to $2.45
JAI96: folds
Uncalled bet ($1.85) returned to GreatJohnnie
GreatJohnnie collected $2.29 from pot
GreatJohnnie: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $2.40 | Rake $0.11
Board [6s 9h Th]
Seat 1: spens77754 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: GreatJohnnie (small blind) collected ($2.29)
Seat 4: JAI96 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 5: Sane4eg1985 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: pkevinkotam folded before Flop (didn't bet)