to many bbs to push here

[hillpoker]

Tournament #281110217, $1.00+$0.10 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2010/01/31 6:15:44 ET
Table '281110217 17' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: iniestapiris (2980 in chips)
Seat 2: Descarado11 (3810 in chips) #281110247, $1.00+$0.10 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2010/01/31 7:54:07 ET
Table '281110247 43' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: figoorist (3287 in chips)
Seat 2: Siedler56 (1950 in chips)
Seat 3: jb29373 (3730 in chips)
Seat 4: Recazy (11495 in chips)
Seat 5: Wonderland_F (3600 in chips)
Seat 6: bkl1706 (5505 in chips)
Seat 7: sushiman1977 (6455 in chips)
Seat 8: schoko2709 (5065 in chips)
Seat 9: catje pronk (9177 in chips)
sushiman1977: posts small blind 50
schoko2709: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to jb29373 [Kd Ah]
catje pronk: raises 200 to 300
figoorist: folds
Siedler56: folds
jb29373: raises 600 to 900
Recazy: folds
Wonderland_F: folds
bkl1706: folds
sushiman1977: folds
schoko2709: folds
catje pronk: raises 800 to 1700
jb29373: raises 2030 to 3730 and is all-in
catje pronk: calls 2030
*** FLOP *** [Js Tc 9h]
*** TURN *** [Js Tc 9h] [Ts]
*** RIVER *** [Js Tc 9h Ts] [3h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
catje pronk: shows [Ad Ac] (two pair, Aces and Tens)
jb29373: shows [Kd Ah] (a pair of Tens)
jb29373 is sitting out
catje pronk collected 7610 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 7610 | Rake 0
Board [Js Tc 9h Ts 3h]
Seat 1: figoorist folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Siedler56 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: jb29373 showed [Kd Ah] and lost with a pair of Tens
Seat 4: Recazy folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Wonderland_F folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: bkl1706 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: sushiman1977 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: schoko2709 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: catje pronk showed [Ad Ac] and won (7610) with two pair, Aces and Tens

[atta22]

You have 35bb's - definitely not a terrible push. Once you raise there you have to call his push.

The only decision in this hand is whether to raise/fold preflop. Unless the UTG opener is super tight, and only raising JJ+/AK, then you played it fine. If he's super tight and only raising premium pocket pairs/AK, then it's a fold. Can't fault you for getting it in here though. Chalk it up to a cooler and move on to the next game!

[Mattutaylor]

Ye I kinda agree with Atta here, but this is where players differ I suppose...

1. You're 3 bet was absolutely fine. Its a matter of personal preference I think as to whether or not to 3 bet with AK in this spot. Personally I would 3 bet.

2. Now this is where my opinion differs from Atta's... I see nothing wrong with folding after he 4 bets you all in. I mean (not taking into account this is a $1 tournament and a lot of players could be shoving with any two cards), the 3 bet shove by him kinda polarizes his range to a premium hand. I would say AA, KK, AKs, AKo, QQ and maybe AJ. If you run that through something like pokerstove, it shows you have a little over 39% equity to his 60%.
This means that to make this call we would need to be getting 3-1 AT LEAST on our money to make this a profitable call. In this situation you're getting nowhere near that and can fold and still leave yourself 25+bbs.

We could add some further hands to our opponents range as, after all, it is a micro tournament so his range could indeed be bigger.

So what if we include in our opponents range AQ (suited and not), AJs and TT-77...

Well our hand would win 49% of the time and villains 51% meaning we would need around 2-1 pot odds to call and here, we just would not be getting the correct price.

[Mattutaylor]

Just notice a couple mistakes in my reply... it was late last night when I wrote it lol. Firstly, AJ in his range i meant as JJ and secondly we would need 2.5-1 to call given first range rather than 3-1.

[hockeyguy]

Just notice a couple mistakes in my reply... it was late last night when I wrote it lol. Firstly, AJ in his range i meant as JJ and secondly we would need 2.5-1 to call given first range rather than 3-1.

welcome aboard Mattutaylor
i have dabbled in $1 mtt occaisonally as a diversion and to try to keep from getting to singled minded in my thinking from mostly playing all 6 man hem. I am curious what additional range of hands and or bluffing % possiblility needed to make a call in this type of situation as discussed above. I read in Harrington's book that he estimates a 10% chance minimum in almost all situations. My experience in the micro mtt( and freerolls play about the same especially early in tournament) is that the chances of a bluff more like 20+% with people shoving 2nd pr/3pr/draw/ air. It appears to me players tighten up (or maybe the total spazzes busted out) when they can start to imagine the payoff, like when down to last 100-200 players depending on starting player count.


My typical results in these type tourneys is to make it into top10-15% of finishers( but not in the $$), but bust out with a stack of about 100-200% of average, but nowhere near big stack in tourney. I generally try to compare the risk reward to busting out vs getting a big stack that can start to bully lessers tacks when i get deep into tourney near the money. I would love to hear your thoughts on this stage of the tourney regarding risk of bust out vs. double up to a biggish type stack.

thanks hockeyguy

[Mattutaylor]

Hey Hockey, thanks for the welcome.

I think that as you get deeper in the tournament, the risk of busting factor becomes quite a bit more important than in the early stages. As a small kind of explanation to this, what I'll do is seperate the tournament into 3 stages below and make a comment on each.


1. Early Tournament - If you have watched my first video, you will have seen the hand where I have (from memory) around 25bbs and limp behind another limper in late pos with 77. Then one of the blinds overships for a similar stack and I discussed how more often than not this is AK - AQ, so I made the call because I feel at this stage of the tournament (blinds were 75-150) I felt that here was a good chance to improve my stack greatly.
Now this is slightly down to personal preference too and how comfortable you are playing big and small stacks. If you aren't that great at managing a big stack, then making the call at this point is probably not the best idea because, as I like to think I can play a big stack quite well, I knew that the extra chips would come in handy as we approached the mid tournament stages, so that I could play a bit more aggressively and see a few more flops with kind of marginal hands ie. J9s etc (in position though) in a tournament where I know the majority of my opponents are going to be willing to go broke with an overpair.

2. Mid stages - Lets say that this is from around the point where the ante's kick in to the bubble. When the ante's kick in is an ideal point to start opening up slightly, especially from late position and stealing the blinds as much as you can. Obviously you have to adjust depending on who is playing back at you etc.
The risk/reward part here is slightly interesting. First as a big stack I think your reward for getting too many chips in with a marginal hand is pretty bad here.

For example. lets take the hands from the early tournament and apply it to this stage with large stacks.

Blinds 300/600, I have 45000 in the cutoff and a mid position player limps. I limp also and the small blinds jams for 49000.

The original limper folds and the decision is on me.

At this point in the tournament, I think getting it in on a semi-read (I call it this because some of the time, the player could have 88+) in a race situation for all of my stack is not necessary at this point. With such a big stack, we should be looking to see flops and outplay our opponents for chips.

The difference between this and the first example of it is only because of our stack sizes and the stage in the tournament. We can just find plenty of other spots, where as early on in the tournament with a slightly shorter stack the reward of getting them extra chips is far more significant. Those extra chips helped us to go on and build our 45000 stack.

If we applied this situation to shorter stacks at this stage of the tournament it is predominantly the same as early tournament, HOWEVER, I would not be calling this overshove with 20bbs+, because again, I feel we could certainly find better spots to steal blinds preflop uncontested.

15bbs or less and I think this is a certain call, but I also feel that given the first limper I would have shipped in pre-flop.


3. Late game - This is after the bubble and I feel that this section of the tournament (in relation to the hand we've been discussing) plays much the same as section 2. As a big stack - medium stack, there is no need to take the risk on our semi-read, but as the stack size dwindles down the more and more likely you become to call.

As a slight adjustment to section 2, I would probably call at this point with 20bbs or less. The importance of doubling up a smaller stack at this stage of the tournament is vital in going on to hopefully final table.



Hope I understood your question properly. I intend to do a video on this kind of stuff in the not too distant future with a few more examples.


matt

[hockeyguy]

tyvm
you hit my exact question, my general plan in freeroll/microbuyin is to Lag it up early and try to build a stack or bust out with out much time/effort/money involved, but your answer indicates i take too many risks later in tourney when i could find better spots to risk bust out. This makes sense when i think back about the hands i have got busted out with when i got towards late stage/bubble time

i ihavent had time to view video yet, but look forward to it

thanks hg